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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) von henning schara gambit (Read 106103 times)
Djy
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #44 - 08/11/11 at 16:41:50
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/08/11 at 01:23:12:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 cxd4 5.Qa4+ Bd7 6.Qxd4 exd5 7.Qxd5 Nf6 8.Qd1 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bc5 10.a3 Qe7 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 0-0 14.e3 Rfd8 15.Qc2 g4 16.Bh4 gxf3 17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.Bxe7 Bxe7 19.gxf3 Be6

I see that my e-mail to Valeri Bronznik only expressed skepsis regarding the position after 19...Be6, it didn't mention 20.Rg1+ Kh8 21.Rd1. - The position is certainly unclear enough to be tried in practice (if it is ever reached in a game). And even against a prepared opponent Black will often have fun with three pieces against a queen. All that I claim is that White has more fun than Black. Can it be a draw? Of course it can.

For example: 21...Rd6 (21...Bf6, proposed by chessy. I'd like 22.Bc4, hoping for 22...Ne5 23.Be2, and Black's minor pieces keep "swimming") 22.f4 Rad8 23.Be2 Bh4 (23...f5 24.Bc4) 24.f5 Bxf5 25.e4 Bh7 26.Qc4 Ne5 27.Qd4 Bf6 28.Qd2 Nc3 29.Qxd6 Rxd6 30.Rxd6 Nxe4 31.Rd5 b6 32.Kf1. Objectively it may well be a draw, but the position is easier to play for White. Black must always keep an eye on defending pawn a7.

21.-Rd6 22.f4 Rad8 23.Be2 Bh4 24 Qe4!? seem strong too. I was not able to hold this position as black.

I 've a little 'deviation' at move 15
[Event "?"]
[Site "Long Island"]
[Date "2011.08.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Analyse Sharra Hennings"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "D32"]
[PlyCount "56"]
[EventDate "1989.??.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1996.11.15"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 cxd4 5. Qxd4 Nc6 6. Qd1 exd5 7. Qxd5 Bd7 8.
a3 Nf6 9. Qd1 Bc5 10. Nf3 Qe7 11. Bg5 h6 12. Bh4 (12. Bxf6 Qxf6 13. e3) 12...
g5 13. Bg3 O-O 14. e3 (14. Qc2 g4) 14... Rfd8 15. Qc2 Nd4!? 16. Nxd4 Bxd4 17.
Be2 (17. Bd3 Rac8 18. O-O Bxc3 19. bxc3= ) 17... Bxc3+ 18. Qxc3 Rac8 19. Qe5
(19. Qb4 Qxb4+ 20. axb4 a6=) 19... Be6 20. Rd1 (20. b4 Nd5 21. h4 Nxb4=)
20... Rxd1+ (20... Rc2!?) (20... Ng4!?) 21. Bxd1 Qd8 (21... Nd7!?) 22. O-O (
22. Qd4 Qxd4 23. exd4 Rc1=) 22... Bc4 23. Re1 Qd2 24. Qc3 (24. f3 Nh5 25.
Ba4 Bd3) 24... Qxc3 25. bxc3 Ne4 26. Be5 Be6 27. Bf3 f5 28. Rc1 b6 *

Can black reach a draw in this endgame (or earlier)

Edit: 25.-Re8 to prevent Be5 is maybe more precise
Is Bronznik give some variations after 12.Bxf6? .It's look a bit better for white too
« Last Edit: 08/12/11 at 06:55:54 by Djy »  

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chessy
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #43 - 08/08/11 at 08:00:27
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I had the probably more logical 21...Rd6 22. ... Rad8 also on the board, but was worried about the immediate 23.f5.
After which the funline Bxf5 seems to be in white favour.

True after  21... Bf6 22. Bc4! looks strong. I didnt look at it at all.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #42 - 08/08/11 at 01:23:12
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 cxd4 5.Qa4+ Bd7 6.Qxd4 exd5 7.Qxd5 Nf6 8.Qd1 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bc5 10.a3 Qe7 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 0-0 14.e3 Rfd8 15.Qc2 g4 16.Bh4 gxf3 17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.Bxe7 Bxe7 19.gxf3 Be6

I see that my e-mail to Valeri Bronznik only expressed skepsis regarding the position after 19...Be6, it didn't mention 20.Rg1+ Kh8 21.Rd1. - The position is certainly unclear enough to be tried in practice (if it is ever reached in a game). And even against a prepared opponent Black will often have fun with three pieces against a queen. All that I claim is that White has more fun than Black. Can it be a draw? Of course it can.

For example: 21...Rd6 (21...Bf6, proposed by chessy. I'd like 22.Bc4, hoping for 22...Ne5 23.Be2, and Black's minor pieces keep "swimming") 22.f4 Rad8 23.Be2 Bh4 (23...f5 24.Bc4) 24.f5 Bxf5 25.e4 Bh7 26.Qc4 Ne5 27.Qd4 Bf6 28.Qd2 Nc3 29.Qxd6 Rxd6 30.Rxd6 Nxe4 31.Rd5 b6 32.Kf1. Objectively it may well be a draw, but the position is easier to play for White. Black must always keep an eye on defending pawn a7.

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chessy
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #41 - 08/07/11 at 22:54:58
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... and if 22.Qe4 of course also Nce7, on 23.Bd3 is maybe Nf5 fun.
  
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #40 - 08/07/11 at 22:42:19
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/29/11 at 21:58:38:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 07/28/11 at 14:32:17:
What are the moves leading up to this position please?

The moves are: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 cxd4 5.Qa4+ Bd7 6.Qxd4 exd5 7.Qxd5 Nf6 8.Qd1 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bc5 10.a3 Qe7 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 0-0 14.e3 Rfd8 15.Qc2 g4 16.Bh4 gxf3 17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.Bxe7 Bxe7 19.gxf3 Be6 [Diagram].

My preference of White's position was based on analysis: 20.Rg1+ Kh8 21.Rd1 Rac8 (21...Rd6 22.f4) 22.Qe4, and a few more moves (this line I also sent to Valeri Bronznik). - If this can be rescued for Black, Bronznik's belief expressed in the book that Black can still castle long in the SHG would be supported. In the Kaissiber 31 article we had concluded that 10.a3 +/- must be avoided by Black, and that there are too many problems connected with the 0-0-0 version of the SHG.

On the question whether there are other critical positions maybe more, when the diagram is really "solved". I am still sceptical.
Huh


I believe black can play after 20.Rh1+ Kg8 21.Rd1 Bf6
if 22.f4 then Nce7

a sample line would run (knowing that there are plenty of other moves...) 23Bd3 Rac8 24.Qe2 Bg7 25. Bb1 f5 26.Qh5 Rd6 27.Bd3 (defending active "b2") Rb6 28 b4 Rbc6 29.Rg5 Nf6 30.Qh3 Rc3 31.a4 Bb3 32.Bxf5 Nxf5 33.Rxf5 Bxd1 34 Ne4

I know it quite rediculous to post such a long unforced line, but all of my games/analyses with my silicon ends somewhere in a draw....

Black nearly always places the  pieces, as already mentioned  like Nd5 / Ne7 / Bf6 / Rd6 etc. Ideas to continue  play Nc3, or attack the b2-pawn with b6, or transfer the Be6 to the e8-a4 diagonal.
Thing to be avoided are f4-f5 by white, entering the R to g6 or sometimes sacrifice it on g7.

Then I am sorry for my bad english, nevertheless I hope to get some opinions...   
  
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #39 - 08/06/11 at 19:14:22
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Some feedback to the diagram-position.

If one let the engines play against each other in a random manner, the games mostly ends in draw (repetition of moves)
In nearly all games the evaluation of the Computer starts to change  = around move 30.

Its hard to give an concrete move order as there are plenty of possible moves for white.
  
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Djy
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #38 - 08/04/11 at 08:25:44
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/04/11 at 02:10:37:
Djy wrote on 08/03/11 at 07:20:09:
Another idea against The 3.Nf3 move order is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 a6!? (very flexible) like Morozevich versus Pelletier Biel 2011.



Wow. How does this relate to the Von Henning-Schara?

After 3.Nf3 one can't reach the VHS .There 's other post who ask something in the thread
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #37 - 08/04/11 at 02:10:37
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Djy wrote on 08/03/11 at 07:20:09:
Another idea against The 3.Nf3 move order is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 a6!? (very flexible) like Morozevich versus Pelletier Biel 2011.


Wow. How does this relate to the Von Henning-Schara?
  
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Djy
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #36 - 08/03/11 at 07:20:09
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Another idea against The 3.Nf3 move order is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 a6!? (very flexible) like Morozevich versus Pelletier Biel 2011.
  

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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #35 - 07/30/11 at 02:45:33
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Dear Folks,

thank you for your interest and comments in the diagram position, and dear Stefan, thank you for describing of what the book is about and what the Kaissiber articles are.
Btw, besides 10.a3 Qe7 also 10.a3 0-0 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 Qe7 might lead to the same.

Still, I find "10.a3 +/-" at least exaggerated.

Generally, in the mainline after 10.e3 Black can chose between castling kingside and castling queenside. But his personal preference between those two possibilities also has an influence on how to react to 10.a3!? (and other sidelines).

Generally, there are sharp attacking positions and some very critical variations in the lines with ...0-0-0. After ...0-0, it's more long-term, Black keeps some pressure for the pawn, but not more, and it's not clear how White can convert the pawn. Remember, the Spanish Marshall Gambit also was at times interpreted to get a positional draw with a pawn down.
  
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #34 - 07/29/11 at 22:01:26
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #33 - 07/29/11 at 21:58:38
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 07/28/11 at 14:32:17:
What are the moves leading up to this position please?

The moves are: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 cxd4 5.Qa4+ Bd7 6.Qxd4 exd5 7.Qxd5 Nf6 8.Qd1 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bc5 10.a3 Qe7 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 0-0 14.e3 Rfd8 15.Qc2 g4 16.Bh4 gxf3 17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.Bxe7 Bxe7 19.gxf3 Be6 [Diagram].

My preference of White's position was based on analysis: 20.Rg1+ Kh8 21.Rd1 Rac8 (21...Rd6 22.f4) 22.Qe4, and a few more moves (this line I also sent to Valeri Bronznik). - If this can be rescued for Black, Bronznik's belief expressed in the book that Black can still castle long in the SHG would be supported. In the Kaissiber 31 article we had concluded that 10.a3 +/- must be avoided by Black, and that there are too many problems connected with the 0-0-0 version of the SHG.

On the question whether there are other critical positions maybe more, when the diagram is really "solved". I am still sceptical.
Huh
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #32 - 07/29/11 at 09:26:15
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 07/28/11 at 14:32:17:
What are the moves leading up to this position please?
Is this the only critical position of the SHG or are there more?

  
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #31 - 07/29/11 at 09:19:50
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chessy wrote on 07/28/11 at 15:42:05:
I used shredder's analysisn-tools and let the position go 8 moves ahead with 3 branches each half moves with the a depth of 17

After more than 24 hours it was done... Tongue ... the engine still assesses the position as better for white but not so clear as at the beginning in the diagram position.

In most lines the engine likes the set up Rd6 / Rd8 / Be6 / Bf6 / Ne7 / Nd5
often there is a tactical shot with Nc3


Yes and there's the option f5 too, after a quick Qe4
[Event "chesspublishing"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "2011.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Analyse V.H.S Gambit2"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Dji"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r2r2k1/pp2bp2/2n1b2p/3n4/8/P3PP2/1PQ2P1P/R3KB1R w KQ - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "16"]
[EventDate "1974.??.??"]

1. Rg1+ Kh8 2. Qe4 Rd6 3. Rd1 Rad8 4. Be2 f5 5. Qc2

(5. Qb1 Bf6 6. f4 Nce7 7. Rd2 Rc8 8.Rc2 Rxc2 9. Qxc2 Rb6 10. b4 Rc6 counterplay)
5... Bf6 6. Qc1
(6. e4 Nde7 7. Rxd6 Rxd6 8. Kf1 Nd4 9. Qc7 Rd7 10. Qc5 b6 11. Qc3 Rd8 12. Bc4 Rc8 13. b3 f4 14. a4 Bh3+15. Ke1 unclear )
6... Kh7  7. f4  Rc8 8. Qc5 Rd7 unclear
  

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chessy
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Re: von henning schara gambit
Reply #30 - 07/28/11 at 15:42:05
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I used shredder's analysisn-tools and let the position go 8 moves ahead with 3 branches each half moves with the a depth of 17

After more than 24 hours it was done... Tongue ... the engine still assesses the position as better for white but not so clear as at the beginning in the diagram position.

In most lines the engine likes the set up Rd6 / Rd8 / Be6 / Bf6 / Ne7 / Nd5
often there is a tactical shot with Nc3

  
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